Cyberspace Cooperation

The Global Cooperation in Cyberspace Initiative seeks to reduce conflict, crime and other disruptions in cyberspace and promote stability, innovation and inclusion.

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Reactions to the Cybersecurity Executive Order

During his annual State of the Union address on February 12, President Obama presented an executive order to protect U.S. critical infrastructure from cyber threats. “Our enemies are also seeking the ability to attack our power grid, our air traffic control system,” he said. “We cannot look back years from now and ask why we did nothing to face real threats to our security and our economy.”

The executive order encourages information sharing between private companies, which currently own and run most critical infrastructure in the U.S., and government agencies. Many companies are loath to share information about cyber breaches, as they believe that this will undermine their standing with customers and competitors. The order also aims to develop voluntary security standards and practices, while at the same time addressing privacy concerns. Many of these provisions were in last year’s failed cybersecurity legislation.

Although many in the private sector have criticized the substance of the executive order, Michael Chertoff, a former director of Homeland Security and EastWest Institute board member, praised the fact that it put the cybersecurity issue front and center on the national agenda. In a discussion with USA Today, Chertoff stated that the order’s requirements “represent a down payment in the protection of our nation's cyber infrastructure.”

Speaking to Computerworld, Gartner Analyst Lawrence Pringree expressed skepticism over the quality of shared intelligence that he asserts would do little to prevent cyber attacks. “It remains to be seen whether the government has useful intelligence that can help bolster commercial sector security,” he said.

Rob Beck, a critical infrastructure cybersecurity consultant with Casaba Security, had similar sentiments. He criticized the voluntary nature of the standards, saying that the order “doesn’t have any teeth; it has no backing,” he told CNN. “This is not going to have any measurable impact on anything.”

In an interview with CSO, Jacob Olcott, principal at Good Harbor Consulting, held that basic “cyber hygiene” measures are more effective than enhanced information-sharing measures. “Classified threat information is not useful for a company that isn’t regularly patching its systems,” he explained.

It is worth noting that, according to a recent Verizon-sponsored study, 97 percent of reported security breaches “were avoidable (at least in hindsight) without difficult or expensive countermeasures.”

The lack of trust between the public and private sector remains a major hurdle, especially as state-sponsored cyber attacks become ubiquitous.

“It is very hard for many of us in the private sector to trust that the feds have significantly better threat information that they are willing to share,” AlienVault CTO Roger Thorton told CSO. “Researchers at hundreds of private organizations like ours are routinely catching attacks and infiltrations backed by states, particularly China and even the U.S. and or its allies.”

China has been accused of producing a high volume of cyber attacks, including recent infiltration into major American newspapers; the Chinese government has yet to issue an official comment on the executive order.

Thorton went on to criticize the American government’s threat reduction capacity; he suggested that the government is more qualified to promote bilateral treaties and international cooperation. “To assert that government’s involvement and training is necessary for private industry to accurately identify, assess and respond to threats is frankly a somewhat arrogant position to take,” he added.

Yet, Dale Peterson, president of Florida-based Digital Bond, a cybersecurity company, told the Christian Science Monitor that Obama’s order was long-overdue. “I had hoped, and have hoped for years, the U.S. government would come out and say the [control systems] that run the critical infrastructure are insecure by design and must be upgraded or replaced ASAP,” he said. “It's hard to believe 11 and a half years after 9/11 that the U.S. government has not even used the bully pulpit to make a difference.”

A great deal of distrust and uncertainty about cyber threats continues to exist in the private sector. In the current climate, the EastWest Institute’s efforts to raise awareness and promote private-public collaboration on cybersecurity issues—including last year’s groundbreaking 3rd Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit in New Delhi—are a crucial part of the broader push for new approaches and solutions.

John Mroz Moderates Panel on Cybersecurity at the Munich Security Conference

On February 2, day two of the Munich Security Conference (MSC), EWI President John Mroz moderated a high-level panel of experts addressing major challenges in cybersecurity. The session, titled “Cyber Security: Crime Prevention or Warfare,” touched on many controversial facets of this new domain of conflict.

In an interview conducted by Slovenia's Delo after the panel, Mroz asserted that, in looking at "companies, organizations and governments, there’s no cyber warfare, but a lot of industrial espionage going on, not just by Russians and Chinese. Democratic countries are in the game, too."

The session was chaired by Dr. Hans-Peter Friedrich, Germany’s Federal Minister of the Interior. The panelists were:


René Obermann Chief Executive Officer, Deutsche Telekom AG

Keith B. Alexander General, Commander, U.S. Cyber Command; Director, National Security Agency, Central Security Service

John Suffolk Global Cyber Security Officer, Huawei Technologies Co, Ltd.

Jane Holl Lute Deputy Secretary for Homeland Security, United States of America

Neelie Kroes Vice President of the European Commission; Commissioner for the Digital Agenda


To frame the discussion, EWI introduced a paper on cybersecurity policy. It offers six ideas for policy action, oriented around combating cyber crime and promoting strategic stability in preparation for cyber conflict. These ideas include a call for the establishment of a trusted entity to collect information on security breaches, as well as an increase in Track 2 diplomatic processes on strategic cyber issues.

This annual conference, organized by EWI board member Wolfgang Ischinger, brings together international leaders from the public and private sectors to address an array of prominent security concerns. Visit the MSC website to learn more.


Click here to access the original interview text in Slovenian.

Indian Media Reports Progress on Undersea Cable Repairs

Two recent articles in the Hindu Business Line focus on India’s urgent need to shorten the time for undersea cable repairs in order to limit financial and production losses across the country. According to these reports, the Telecommunications Ministry has proposed to slash submarine cable repair time to three to five days, which would approach best-in-class performance. Currently, undersea cable repair processes can take over two months for Indian territorial waters, contributing to very slow restoration of Internet services and degraded performance.

The EastWest Institute has been advocating a major effort to improve the reliability and security of the cables based on the 12 recommendations made in a joint IEEE-EWI Report, The Reliability of Global Undersea Communications Cable Infrastructure (ROGUCCI) Report. EWI continues to champion many of these recommendations and conducts outreach seminars with senior government and industry leaders in India, as well as across the globe.

Karl Rauscher, EWI’s chief technology officer and author of the ROGUCCI Report, observed:  “News of this progress in India is very encouraging.  Reducing the duration of service-impacting events affecting international connectivity is one of two top priorities for improving the stability of the Internet at a global level.”  The other priority is avoiding geographic chokepoints, which  is addressed by a separate ROGUCCI recommendation.
 Ram Narain, Deputy Director General for Security, Department of Telecommunications, Indian Ministry or Communications and IT and Dean Veverka, Chair of the International Cable Protection Committee (ICPC) at the EWI Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit 2012 in New Delhi
In the December 21, 2012 article the Telecommunications Ministry issued the following statement: “A submarine communication cable is a vital infrastructure for the communication as well as for the financial stability of the country. Whenever there is a cable cut, besides the huge revenue loss, it results in a loss of 50-60 per cent of the connectivity.”
A second article on January 1, 2013 highlighted India’s slower cable-repair times as compared to the rest of the world, mainly due to procedural hassles. The latest example is that of the Vessel CS Asean Explorer, an undersea repair cable ship, which has been forced to move out of Indian waters due to restrictions by customs authorities.
In May 2012, India’s Institute for Defense Studies and Analyses (IDSA) published India's Critical Role in the Resilience of the Global Undersea Communications Cable Infrastructure, an analysis of security interests and best practices that provides a roadmap for countries to enhance their international connectivity.

Harry Raduege Discusses Protecting Physical and Cyber Infrastructure

Speaking with experts from the United States Department of Homeland Security, Lt. Gen (ret.) Harry D. Raduege, Jr., a member of the EastWest Institute's president's advisory group, addressed the increasing interdependence between physical and cyber infrastructure and the best means of securing both.

"I don't think we've really recognized the fact of the closeness of the physical and the cyber security in the past," said Raduege.

The discussion was broadcast on FedCentral, a Deloitte-sponsored program on Washington, D.C.'s Federal News Radio. The guests were Suzanne Spaulding, DHS deputy under secretary for the national protection and programs directorate, and Mark Weatherford, DHS deputy under secretary for cybersecurity, national protection and programs directorate. 

3rd Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit Highlights

In his keynote address at the 3rd Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit, Michael Chertoff, former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security, discussed how the rapid pace of technological change has triggered a corresponding leap in vulnerabilities that can be exploited by cyber criminals. This, in turn, raises fears about government intrusion that could threaten privacy and individual freedoms. Chertoff pointed out how complicated many of these issues have become. “You cannot have privacy without security,” he said, while acknowledging the legitimate fears that some governments will attempt to control Internet content.

To hear other key presenters at the summit, including Kapil Sibal, India’s Minister for Communications and Information Technology and Punit Renjen, Chairman of the Board, Deloitte LLP,  please visit the summit website or follow the links below.


John Edwin Mroz, President and CEO, EastWest Institute
Armen Sarkissian, Vice-Chairman, EastWest Institute
Vijay Bhargava, President, IEEE Communications Society
Arbind Prasad, Director General, Federation of Indian
Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI)
Som Mittal, President, National Association of Software and Service Companies (NASSCOM)


Kapil Sibal, India’s Minister for Communications and Information Technology


Nandan Nilekani, Chairman of the Unique Identification Authority of India


Anurag Jain, Chairman, Laurus Edutech Pvt. Ltd.; Chairman, Access Healthcare; Member, Board of Directors, EastWest Institute
J. Satyanarayana, Secretary, Department of Electronics and Information Technology, Ministry of Communications and Information Technology, Government of India
Pradeep Gupta, Chairman & Managing Director, Cyber Media (India) Ltd.
Subimal Bhattacharjee, Country Head, General Dynamics
R. Chandrashekhar, Secretary, Department of Telecommunications, Ministry of Communications and IT, Government of India


Maria Livanos Cattaui, Former Secretary General, International Chamber of Commerce; Member, Board of Directors, EastWest Institute
Christopher Painter, Coordinator for Cyber Issues,U.S. Department of State
Burgess Cooper, Vice President & Chief Technology Security Officer, Vodafone India Ltd.
Toru Nakaya, Director-General, Institute for Information and Communications Policy (IICP), Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, Japan
John Suffolk, Global Cyber Security Officer, Huawei


Michael Chertoff, Chairman and Co-Founder, Chertoff Group; Former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security; Member, Board of Directors, EastWest Institute


Bob Campbell, Member, Board of Directors, EastWest Institute
Gulshan Rai, Director General, CERT India, Department of Electronics & Information Technology, Government of India
Zhou Yonglin, Director, Internet Society of China
Greg Shannon, Chief Scientist, CERT Program,Carnegie Mellon University
Vartan Sarkissian, CEO, Knightsbridge Cybersystems
Erin Nealy Cox, Executive Managing Director, Stroz Friedberg
Michael Chertoff, Chairman and Co-Founder, Chertoff Group; Former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security; Member, Board of Directors, EastWest Institute


Punit Renjen, Chairman of the Board, Deloitte LLP


Karl F. Rauscher, CTO and Distinguished Fellow, EastWest Institute


Armen Sarkissian, Vice-Chairman, EastWest Institute
Kamlesh Bajaj, CEO, Data Security Council of India (DSCI)
Philip J. Venables, Chief Information Risk Officer, Goldman Sachs
Mike St John-Green, Former Deputy Director, Office of Cyber Security and Information Assurance, United Kingdom
John M. Howell, Executive Director, IEEE Communications Society
Latha Reddy, Deputy National Security Advisor, Government of India
Harry D. Raduege, Jr., Lt. General (Ret.), Chairman, Deloitte Center for Cyber Innovation

China and India Pledge to Work Together on Cybersecurity

On the second day of EastWest Institute’s 3rd Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit in New Delhi, leading Indian and Chinese cyber experts declared their commitment to increased cooperation between their two countries, particularly between their Computer Emergency Readiness Teams (CERT).

“CERTs have to drive nations to international cooperation,” said Gulshan Rai, Director General of CERT India. “India and China will be cooperating with each other to secure cyberspace.” Zhou Yonglin, Director of the Internet Society of China, added: “We had very good talks with Dr. Rai on how to improve cooperation between China and India CERTs. We can help each other to stop the threats.” Both representatives also pledged greater cooperation with other nations.

As demonstrated by a poll of the more than 300 participants from 22 countries who are taking part in the summit, the need for such cooperation is greater than ever.  Ninety-three percent of those surveyed believe that the cybersecurity risk is higher than a year ago.
Other results include: 47% believe that corporate boards grossly underestimate the cybersecurity problem and 19% believe that those boards are so confused that they don’t know what to think; 63% believe that their governments are only in the early stage of understanding and committing themselves to international cooperation in cybersecurity; 45% believe their country can defend itself against cyber attacks; and 40% believe that their privacy is not protected online while 32% believe it is protected.
While acknowledging some progress in efforts to combat global cyber crime, former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff assessed the current level of international cooperation on cybersecurity as “fair to middling.” Pointing to major differences on such issues as intellectual property and data protection, he added: “We haven’t accomplished what we need to accomplish.”
Vartan Sarkissian, CEO of Knightsbridge Cybersystems, also stressed the need for international cooperation, but he maintained that the process must begin at the local level. “The challenge is further complicated by the fact that companies are ignorant of their own vulnerabilities,” he said. “They don’t know the specific protocols of their own systems.”

Vijay Bhargava, president of the IEEE ComSoc, signs a MOU with EWI President John Mroz

Erin Nealy Cox, Executive Managing Director at Stroz Friedberg, concurred that private companies often are lacking basic information on the cybersecurity problems they face. “CEOs need more metrics in this area,” she said, arguing that without such information much of the spending on cybersecurity measures could prove ineffective. She pointed to a forthcoming EastWest Institute study that will seek to fill this void by providing clearer guidelines for measuring the problem. “EWI’s work in this area will be very significant,” she added.
In his concluding keynote address, Deloitte’s Indian-born Chairman of the Board Punit Renjen commended the EastWest Institute’s decision to hold the summit in New Delhi. “India has a cyber vision that is grand and it is bold,” he said, pointing to the way the Internet has lifted millions from poverty. But he also noted that most of the population still lacks connectivity, and cyber crime is already taking a heavy toll, with an estimated $6 billion in annual losses in India and $400 billion worldwide. “Right now it seems that the bad guys are winning,” he said.
“This is a great, great challenge; that’s why these summits are so important,” Renjen continued. “EWI has certainly provided leadership by serving as a catalyst for collective transnational action.”
The recommendations of the New Delhi summit will be pursued over the course of the next year, forming the basis for discussions at the 4th Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit that will be held in Silicon Valley in 2013. 

What Rules for Cyberspace?

Addressing more than 300 participants from 22 countries at the opening session of the EastWest Institute’s 3rd Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit in New Delhi, Kapil Sibal, India’s Minister for Communications and Information Technology, called for “a global agreement” on how to protect the key infrastructure of the digital world.

Pointing out that for the first time in human history everyone is operating from the same platform, Sibal declared: “It is no longer a question of a nation protecting its own security; it’s a question of the global community protecting itself.” He called for a new understanding about what constitutes cyber crime and how to combat it, including the idea of empowering “cyber justices” in the future who would adjudicate such cases. “India pledges to work with the global community,” he added.
Although there were clear differences among the speakers about the desirability and possible scope of new international agreements, Ross Perot, Jr., the Chairman of the EastWest Institute, welcomed India’s participation in discussions about the future of cyberspace. “We are all in the room today because we recognize that India is an essential partner on cybersecurity,” he said.
The two-day cybersecurity summit is organized in partnership with the National Association of Software and Service Companies (NASSCOM) and the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI).
Nandan Nilekani, Chairman of the Unique Identification Authority of India, praised the EastWest Institute for its forward-looking agenda. “It’s a great opportunity for all of us to have such a galaxy of experts together in one room,” he said. “And we have the EastWest Institute to thank.”
In the other opening day panels, top cyber officials and experts from both the private and public sectors agreed that the rapid pace of technological change has triggered a corresponding leap in vulnerabilities that can be exploited by cyber criminals. It has also raised fears about government intrusion that could threaten privacy and individual freedoms. Michael Chertoff, Chairman of the Chertoff Group and former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security, pointed out how complicated many of these issues have become. “You cannot have privacy without security,” he said, while acknowledging the legitimate fears that some governments will attempt to control Internet content.
John Suffolk, the Global Cyber Security Officer of Huawei, argued that the benefits of new cyber technologies deserve more emphasis. “The more you frighten people, the less people will use technology that drives the economy forward,” he said. Christopher Painter, the Coordinator for Cyber Issues at the U.S. State Department, added: “Security is not the end goal; security is the foundation.”
In his opening remarks, EastWest Institute President John Mroz declared: “We are here for a purpose—to build trust and find solutions together.” He pointed out that the two previous annual summits in Dallas and London have led to the implementation of 52 per cent of the 27 recommendations that came out of those consultations. “This is a process, not just a conference,” he added.
As the participants began work in their breakthrough groups on specific issues such as protecting undersea cable infrastructure, cloud computing, priority international communications and payload security, EWI Vice-Chairman Armen Sarkissian, former Prime Minister of Armenia, declared: “In a short period of time, this summit process has proven itself effective.”
The recommendations of the New Delhi summit will be pursued over the course of the next year, forming the basis for discussions at the 4th Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit that will be held in Silicon Valley in 2013.
To follow the summit latest developments, visit
We are tweeting about the summit under #cybersummit.


A Critical Role for India

On the eve of the EastWest Institute’s 3rd Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit in New Delhi, top Indian government officials, along with international private and public sector leaders, met for a series of private workshops today. Held at the headquarters of the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI), the first workshop on fighting spam and botnets was facilitated by the Malware, Messaging and Mobile Anti-Abuse Working Group (M3AAWG).

“I am honored that the 3rd Worldwide Cybersecurity is being organized here in Delhi,” said R. Chandrashekhar, Secretary, Department of Telecommunications, at the official opening. Citing the enormity of the problems posed by the rapid expansion of the Internet, he asserted: “We have to start looking at the individual pieces. That’s where this dialogue becomes important.”

Along with the workshop on spam and botnets, the participants focused on payload security, cloud computing, and supply chain integrity. “The number of threats and the number of mechanisms to counter these threats is increasing by the day,” warned J. Satyanarayana, Secretary, Department of Electronics and Information Technology. To protect both cyberspace and the physical world, he appealed for increased international cooperation.
EWI President John Mroz emphasized India’s critical role in cybersecurity. “The fact that two secretaries have joined us on this very busy Monday morning for the Indian government is a testament to the importance of this country’s role in this process," he said.
Dr. Arbind Prasad the Director General of FICCI underscored this point. “India is a critical player in the Internet eco-system.” Kamlesh Bajaj, the CEO of the Data Security Council of India (DSCI), also stressed the need for India to act in concert with other nations. “It’s very timely that we are participating as India in the global deliberations,” he said.
Michael O’Reirdan, the chairman of M3AAWG, pointed to the progress that has already been made to introduce best practices to reduce spam and botnets. “This is a problem we have to address so that people do not get victimized,” he said. Karl Rauscher, EWI’s Chief Technology Officer, added: “We are getting rid of pollution in cyberspace on a massive scale.”
The progress made at the off-the-record workshops helped set the stage for the summit deliberations on October 30-31, which will build on the achievements of the previous annual summits in Dallas and London. “I want to particularly compliment the EastWest Institute for having put together this summit,” said Secretary Chandrashekhar.

U.S.-India Cyber Diplomacy: A Waiting Game

The 3rd Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit in New Delhi will bring together an international group of over 300 leaders from the business, policy and technology communities to propose solutions to major challenges in the field. In anticipation of the summit, EWI's Franz-Stefan Gady looks at India's future in cyberspace in a column for The National Interest.

Recently, the Indian National Security Council Secretariat released recommendations by a joint public-private working group on cybersecurity that aimed to strengthen India’s capability to combat the rising threat from cyberspace. One of the key recommendations is the establishment of a “Joint Committee on International Cooperation and Advocacy” to promote “India’s national interests at various international fora on cybersecurity issues.” This begs the question: What exactly are India’s national interests in cyberspace?

Given the recent declaration by the United States that it wishes to strengthen the U.S.-Indian relationship, this question is especially important to U.S. foreign-policy makers. Diplomatically, India is caught between the China-Russia bloc and the West; it enjoys close military ties with Russia and strong economic ties with China (New Delhi's largest trading partner). At the same time, India is moving cautiously towards the United States and the West on a number of key cybersecurity issues, such as norms for cyber conflict. Before openly committing to either side, however, India must streamline its internal cyber capabilities; the establishment of the public-private sector group is evidence that this work has already started.

During his visit to India in the summer of 2012, U.S. defense secretary Leon Panetta mentioned the need for cooperation on legal questions posed by cyber warfare. But despite official statements touting cooperation on cybersecurity, real collaboration between the two nations has been slow. India and the United States conducted a second round of cyber consultations in June 2012 within the framework of the U.S.-India Strategic Dialogue. They previously agreed on cooperation between the Computer Emergency Response Teams of both countries, and India participated in an international cyber war game hosted by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. There also is an ongoing U.S.-India Information and Communications Technology Dialogue, and Indian and U.S. experts collaborated in developing some recommendations for norms of behavior and confidence-building measures in cyberspace for the United Nations Group of Governmental Experts on Information Security. Conversely, substantive progress has been slow because of the wider diplomatic discrepancies between the two nations.

The United States’ principal objective in its pivot to Asia is containing China through regional alliances in which India plays a key role. Nevertheless, the Indian foreign-policy establishment still harbors deep suspicions about the utility of its relationship with the United States. First, India must carefully balance its relationship with China, of which it also is suspicious but which it approaches pragmatically. After all, China and India are neighbors with an unsettled border dispute and the legacy of short war in 1962. Second, the relationship with Russia, India’s biggest weapons supplier, is of great importance to the growing Indian military and cannot be jeopardized in the short run. Third, the U.S. stance on Iran is perplexing to India, which evinces very little understanding about the rationale behind sanctions, given that Pakistan, a nuclear-armed state and base for radical Islamists, enjoys U.S. support. Finally, the legacy of India’s role in the nonalignment movement during the Cold War continues to influence policy makers in both countries.

All these factors pervade the bilateral dialogue on cybersecurity. In addition, the perception of the West’s adversaries in cyberspace, Russia and China, differs substantially between Washington and New Delhi. For example, one of the biggest points of contention between the United States and China is cyber espionage—what experts call advanced persistent threats—a subject barely mentioned by the Indian private sector but of huge importance for the United States. This is in part the result of denial. Private-sector companies are reluctant to share data on this subject and there is a lack of awareness in Indian board rooms. But it is principally the product of India’s economic development. In 2011, research and development expenditure in India was only 0.7 percent of GDP, with government expenditure accounting for 70 percent of that figure, according to a report released by India’s Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses.

Today, the attitude of New Delhi is comparable to the Mozart opera Cosi Fan Tutte (Thus Do They All). Industrial espionage is committed by all countries, but it hasn’t reached the level and intensity seen in the United States because other targets are less interesting to Chinese intruders than America. Also, in contrast to Western countries, the Indian government is taking the lead in cybersecurity awareness, which, given that 90 percent of India’s critical information infrastructure is in the hands of the private sector, will progress slowly. This will naturally impact Indo-U.S. cyber diplomacy.

The first sign of true progress will be when India joins the European Convention on Cybercrime. The Council of Europe extended an invitation to India in 2009, and it is something that “India is carefully watching,” according to a panelist at the press conference of the National Security Council Secretariat held on October 15 in New Delhi. China and Russia oppose the convention on various grounds, and consequently it has become one of the principal determiners of alliance structures in cyberspace. The U.S. State Department and the Indian Ministry of External Affairs already formed a working group to further discuss the issue of international norms in cyberspace and global Internet governance, including discussions on the European Convention on Cybercrime, a sign that the discussion is moving in that direction.

“East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,” said Rudyard Kipling. But when it comes to the field of cybersecurity, India’s economic development demands closer diplomatic ties to the West.

Click here to read this piece and comment at The National Interest.

For further information on how the global community can co-create solutions to these challenges, visit the website for the EastWest Institute’s 3rd Worldwide Cybersecurity Summit in New Delhi, to be held on October 30-31, 2012.


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